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Post by pillis on Apr 9, 2020 16:01:03 GMT -5
People do need to continue with the social distancing, which is helping, but the world has definitely seen much worse pandemics than this one in recent history. This is the worse since Spanish flu. Swine took many lives but didn't create such havoc with the global health systems.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 9, 2020 16:44:29 GMT -5
The virus infected a few millions, killed tens of thousands, while the measures against it fucked up the lives of billions, perhaps forever. Yeah, great handling of the situation.
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Post by pillis on Apr 9, 2020 17:19:06 GMT -5
The virus infected a few millions, killed tens of thousands, while the measures against it fucked up the lives of billions, perhaps forever. Yeah, great handling of the situation. The numbers known are largely misleading and underestimated. Also they're low THANKS to the restrictions otherwise it would be even a bigger mess.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 9, 2020 17:40:03 GMT -5
The virus infected a few millions, killed tens of thousands, while the measures against it fucked up the lives of billions, perhaps forever. Yeah, great handling of the situation. The numbers known are largely misleading and underestimated. Also they're low THANKS to the restrictions otherwise it would be even a bigger mess. And even that would still be a SMALLER mess than the ones the restrictions have created.
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Post by pillis on Apr 9, 2020 18:00:27 GMT -5
Sure, luckily you don't run the world. Sorry but seems like you've been living under a rock
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 10, 2020 0:58:45 GMT -5
I think you're a sheep who blindly listens and you can't think for yourself. I hope you've enjoyed your life before this March. The freedoms you've given up, you're not getting them back after the virus.
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Post by pillis on Apr 10, 2020 2:56:52 GMT -5
I think you're a sheep who blindly listens and you can't think for yourself. I hope you've enjoyed your life before this March. The freedoms you've given up, you're not getting them back after the virus. No we won't, life will be different because there's a highly contagious disease for which we don't have a cure around in the world so we need to be careful. While all you think about is your personal agenda. I really hope your city is not affected and neither you or your family and friends will be affected by this calamity directly or indirectly. I can't imagine what the situation would look like if we hadn't taken drastic measures. Pandemics have always been controlled this way, unfortunately because China and WHO lied to us and because of EU and US lack of pandemic protocols, we are now hardly hit by this virus and have to get the situation under control until we have a cure. This is the biggest moment in history since WWII and you bitch about a few concerts that are gonna be either postponed or refunded. I'm sorry but you clearly have no clue of what's going on. It's not that the whole world suddenly woke up and wanted to limit our freedoms because of some secret conspiracy...it's just how you deal with a pandemic of this proportion in a highly globalised world. So yeah, it's gonna take a while and we have to give up our freedoms for the next months in order to have our lives back as soon as possible. If the daily growth of new cases goes under 1% the epidemic will slowly start to die out because the new cases won't be able to spread the infection and hospitals will go back to normal after they've set up covid-19 units to avoid postponing treatments for standard patients which is what's been happening in Italy, Spain, France and new York. I don't see international travel go back to normal anytime soon. Every country will check its borders and people will be tested thoroughly to isolate possible covid-19 cases.
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Post by redvers76 on Apr 10, 2020 3:03:15 GMT -5
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Post by pillis on Apr 10, 2020 3:33:16 GMT -5
It's appalling that after the delay and mistakes Italy has made being the first country hit by the virus, other countries still under estimate this and continued to make the same mistakes. Surely Italy is hardly hit because of high density in population, the high average age and the active social life of our elderly who usually live close to their families allowing the virus to spread faster and to take more lives than in Sweden which has a young population, with low density and with the elderly living on their own with little contact. You know Italians love their families so social gathering is crucial for us and unfortunately this cultural aspect put us in a very difficult situation.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 10, 2020 4:21:39 GMT -5
Yet South Korea managed to control it without any lockdown. And they have over 50 million people in a tiny peninsula. But why do the sane thing of just making people cover their damn faces, test like crazy, test everyone who has any chance of having it, isolate those that have it/ don't have results yet and let the rest, you know, the vast majority of the population move on with their lives, separated from those that have it? Nope, let's not do that, let's do exactly what China did, strip people of their freedom, institute lockdowns, get a spike in the number of infections and deaths in the locked areas because now you've locked those healthy in the same fucking space as those infected. Oh, and also wreck the economy and people's lives in the process.
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Post by pillis on Apr 10, 2020 4:49:15 GMT -5
We all know Taiwan and Korea did better because unlike EU and US they HAD pandemic protocols after sars. We didn't. You can't think with the "what ifs", now this is the situation, we all did too little and too late in the West, now we have to do this, it's the only way we have to slow the epidemic. Also, many countries don't have the resources to test so much because we lack labs and staff and chemicals to run these tests and EU is failing to come up with a support emergency economic plan unlike the US which passes a 2.2K Bill in matter of days/weeks. South Korea had invested in these preventive measures before. Taiwan checked every flight as soon as there was the news of a new outbreak in China. They're also small and isolated countries whereas EU and US are much more interconnected.
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Post by redvers76 on Apr 10, 2020 4:53:16 GMT -5
Yet South Korea managed to control it without any lockdown. And they have over 50 million people in a tiny peninsula. But why do the sane thing of just making people cover their damn faces, test like crazy, test everyone who has any chance of having it, isolate those that have it/ don't have results yet and let the rest, you know, the vast majority of the population move on with their lives, separated from those that have it? Nope, let's not do that, let's do exactly what China did, strip people of their freedom, institute lockdowns, get a spike in the number of infections and deaths in the locked areas because now you've locked those healthy in the same fucking space as those infected. Oh, and also wreck the economy and people's lives in the process. South Korea spent a fortune up front and bought/made PPE and got the testing done EARLY. No other country was as forward thinking as that. Hell, in the UK you can't guarantee to get tested even if you're in hospital with the symptoms! The UK policy was very much "old people are expendable, we must protect the economy at all costs" and the prime minister was going around visiting people with the virus while not wearing any PPE. No surprises then that he ended up catching it, and spreading it to god knows how many people. Regards wrecking the economy and lives, the problem we have is we have underfunded healthcare and with capacity reduced to the very minimum. So a soon as anything comes in that overwhelms that capacity, you're screwed. Sure, the economy and people's lives are being adversely affected at the minute; jobs lost, mental health issues, domestic violence. They are not to be underestimated. But you also shouldn't underestimate the impact of NOT doing a lockdown to reduce the transmission rate... Many more people dead, and the knock-on effects of that on people's lives and the economy. Once we're able to test en masse then we'll finally be able to get out of lockdown by being tested and showing that we've been exposed, we're immune. Until a vaccine is ready, only those tested and shown to have had the virus will be able to move freely. Tested & not had it? You're putting your life at risk by going out...
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Post by pillis on Apr 10, 2020 4:57:56 GMT -5
That's true problem is it's still too early to know if people who got it are immune, the coronaviruses we know have low immunizations and we don't have vaccines for them, also because there wasn't an enocomic demand for them as they are responsible for simple cold symptoms. This is different, if the vaccine is gonna be inefficient and there won't be herd immunity we're screwed and we have to hope they find a cure soon and people with antibodies at least will develop milder symptoms.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 10, 2020 7:52:14 GMT -5
I was talking about the general population covering their faces, not medical personnel. Who yes, do need more protection, but for the average person not stepping into a hospital, a home-made mask is enough. Everybody has a scarf or a t-shirt they can use at home. It's not perfect, but it helps. Yet I still don't see this measure being taken in many places in Europe. Even though it can still help.
Forcing people to stay together at home only increases the risk not just for all of them to get infected if one gets infected, but to develop more severe symptoms because they've been exposed to someone infected all the damn time at home.
Coupling no more other activities with the fact that everyone is now afraid to touch shopping carts and baskets, you get more frequent trips to the supermarket.
Then closing a bunch of stores deemed "not essential" and imposing a curfew has only made supermarkets even more crowded. I only know of two supermarkets where the level of crowded hasn't exploded since the lockdown. I used to get chocolate from health stores that were also selling cosmetics and other cleaning products. I now go to the supermarket. I used to go to the supermarket at odd hours like after 10pm, but now I'm not allowed to go out after 10pm, so I have to go when everybody else goes.
The limiting the number of people allowed inside stores has also backfired because you end up with huge queues. And I can't keep the distance even if I try because there's always someone past a certain age who will go in between people that keep the distance and when told that's a no, will start crying that's a long queue, they cannot physically stand for that long without collapsing so they'll not get to buy bread and whatever, then someone from the supermarket will reach breaking point when faced with this circus and will just let in everybody that's in the damn queue, which is a lot more people than they had on any given day before any measures were put in place. And once inside, it's also mostly old people who won't keep the distance for fear they won't get to buy X or Y, even though there's no shortage of over 99% of the items.
And let's talk about public transport. Which now gets used more by old people, but the number of buses and trains has been reduced, the space within buses has been reduced so people won't get close to drivers, so now there are more old people crammed in a smaller space on fewer buses. Brilliant!
Shall we talk about the waste of paper because you need a damn document about the purpose of why you're not inside every time you leave the house?
On top of that, we were told the lockdown is going to mean an improvement, that the rate of increase is going to start going down after 2-3 weeks. Well, we're exactly there and almost half our cases have happened after the two week mark. You were saying what about that rate of increase? The numbers say it has only started going crazy recently, when we were supposed to see the positive effects of the lockdown.
Great, fucked the lives of so many people only to make the virus problem worse.
So here's what I'm saying: tell people to cover their damn faces all the damn time they're not alone, and for fuck's sake, that means especially when they're inside the house with family members because that's the biggest risk for most people (that don't work in a hospital). And ramp up the testing. Do this shit instead of complaining it's too late. And end this carnival of stupid because it's doing more harm than good.
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Post by pillis on Apr 10, 2020 8:14:24 GMT -5
Sure Jan, run for president.
Of course the lock down has harsh side effects but it's working. Unfortunately as we're democracies we can't set martial law and use the army to deliver food to everyone which would be incredibly beneficial. Also the numbers have increased recently because there's more awareness so we test more and people call the doctors for testing, also the incubation period of this virus is incredibly long and is reported to go up to 30 days in some cases. Also there's a huge shortage of face masks in the West and hospitals don't have enough intensive care beds and ventilators so we can't afford to have more cases right now, that's the reason of these drastic measures. The whole world is working to improve the hospital capacity and masks production. That's why we need to slow the virus down as much as possible before we can reprise our normal lives, because if we are going back to normal now then we wouldn't be able to face the wave of patients. But it seems you don't care because you can't go shopping at 11pm for a chocolate milk. Just do a big grocery once every 10 days maybe using online shipping and you can avoid crowded situations. Most supermarkets here have proper lines with people staying far from each other and only allow 10 people in at a time so it's never crowded. People should be responsible on their own, authorities can only do so much controlling our actions.
Families get infected because hospitals can't host all positive people, in some areas they're using hotels to isolate people in mild conditions but as long as the outbreak is slow it will eventually die out and hopefully we will find a cure by that time. If the world would act reckless like if nothing's happening we would count millions of deaths. In new York city they can't deal with the high number of bodies. That's reality. So we need time to organise our societies in order to be able to live with the virus because we weren't ready. That's a fact, you can't say: oh but Korea did this and did that. We're not Korea so we better deal with it now.
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