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Post by redvers76 on Apr 12, 2020 7:26:25 GMT -5
Sure, luckily you don't run the world. Sorry but seems like you've been living under a rock You seem to be being a bit nasty to her. Maybe ease up a bit. Hitler, or Hillary. would love you and how easily you conform. People aren’t conforming in America, yay for freedom! Yay for zombie Jesus! Yay for stupidly high death rates, and people becoming ill in a country that doesn’t think free healthcare for all is a good thing. Different countries are doing the lockdown in different way, some better than others. Ireland, very similar to the U.K. in terms of healthcare availability, locked down two weeks before the U.K. - they cancelled St Patrick’s Day FFS. And they’re respecting the lockdown - there was uproar when people were still going to the pub before there was a lockdown! They’re also testing, testing, testing. And what have they got compared to the U.K.? Properly recorded figures, and a death rate more than half that in the U.K. meanwhile we aren’t testing everyone in hospital with symptoms, and therefore are fudging the figures lower than they really are. Our death rate might actually be double what we’re reporting! Sure, other causes of death are available, someone was going on about how many people flu kills. At it’s peak the flu kills around 30 people a day in New York. This ain’t at it’s peak and it’s already 30x that number.
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Post by AeroCooper on Apr 12, 2020 11:14:45 GMT -5
Not that it matters either way, but I do hope that's not the general consensus outside of the US. I've seen both extremes, but in my personal world, most are taking this very seriously.
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Post by pillis on Apr 12, 2020 13:38:42 GMT -5
Just a bunch of excuses.
Again the problem is not the mortality itself (which is much higher than normal flu for which we have some kind of protection with vaccines and herd immunity, seasonal flu doesn't overwhelm hospitals).
The purpose of the lockdown is not to strip us from our freedom and dignity but to take time so hospitals can face future infections as this virus is gonna stay like the flu but our systems aren't prepared. There are side effects but they are far smaller than the effects we would have without any lockdown. We are having 3/4K new cases every day in Italy with the lockdown, I can't imagine which numbers we would be getting without it...finally the number of people admitted to the hospitals is decreasing every day, we have almost doubled our intensive care units in the meantime (which thanks to EU's Fiscal Compact have been reduced since 2012). Just look at what happened in Bergamo, Madrid and nyc. It's total chaos. Denying this is stupid and criminal. Saying you could die from anything else is in fact another issue completely.
Again the problem is not that people are dying, is that people are getting sick in high numbers with very severe symptoms compromising our societies as a whole.
And stop with the BS conspiracies of population control, micro chips and no-vax hysteria. Even Trump is being reasonable about this virus which says a lot.
No one wants to prolong the quarantine into the summer, most countries are either planning or already implementing a phase 2 in which we will cope with the virus while slowly returning to normality. Then of course every country has a different situation because of demographics, economy, culture and politics but it's important to cooperate to prevent a huge second wave.
And yes I'm being nasty because stupidity makes me snap especially in this difficult moment where we should support each other and cooperate.
This is not an economic crisis like 2008, this is a crisis from a drop in GDP which can be easily be sustained with social welfare.
And by the way I hate Hillary and I think Trump should win over Biden.
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Post by petertherock on Apr 12, 2020 20:00:06 GMT -5
I was going to go but my priest e-mailed me and told me they are using this time to do renovations in the Church so there wouldn’t even be a private Mass going on. First time that I can remember not going to Easter Mass. So my revolt was short lived. Instead, I watched the Easter Vigil Mass in my home chapel and set the smoke alarms off with my incense. LOL! Luckily I was able to call the alarm company back before the FD got here.
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Post by VoodooMedicineMan on Apr 12, 2020 20:19:57 GMT -5
I thought the lockdown was an overreaction at first, now I think we waited too long in the US. I didn't think something like this would ever happen here. Every other year there was some type of potential pandemic we heard about that just fizzeled out. I figured this was another on the list, then it exploded, and fast.
Even with the lockdown in place, hospitals are overwhelmed both in terms of equipment and personal. I don't really think they had any other option. Yes, China and South Korea were able to get the virus under control, but they are manufacturing powerhouses. They can produce all the equipment they need for themselves. Most other countries can't. Hospitals in this country can't even get the protective masks they need, so obviously other essential workers can't get any and are getting infected and spreading it.
This situation sucks, but most of the world wasn't prepared for this and keeping the infection rate as low as possible is the best option while they play catchup with hospitals, testing, treatment etc.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 13, 2020 1:58:27 GMT -5
And stop with the BS conspiracies of population control, micro chips and no-vax hysteria. You are LITERALLY THE ONLY person in this thread who has ever mentioned this. Furthermore, you're just repeating the same old and refusing to look at the big picture, refusing to take into account everything that is at stake here. It's damn easy to throw around words like "just excuses", but you haven't provided a single valid argument for your position. The health system you keep repeating shouldn't be overwhelmed does not exist in a bubble. It doesn't run on magic juice. It needs money to keep going. Money doesn't grow on trees. It comes precisely from the economy that's being closed. That money is going to run out sooner or later, depending on how rich a country is and on how good it is at using its resources. You will be overwhelming that healthcare system precisely by shutting down the economy. And then the level of care is going to drop for everyone. Which is going to mean a lot of preventable deaths. A lower quality of life. A shorter life expectancy. Your life may end up being 15 years shorter than it could have been because due to this economic measures, your healthcare won't be held to the same standard for the rest of your living days. And this does not mean you'll die younger and healthier. You'll die at 70 just as sick as you would have died at 85. The economy that's being shut down provides the money for maintaining critical infrastructure. Provides the money for medications, medical equipment, paying doctors and nurses. It provides the money for maintaining the roads people drive on so they don't transform into veritable death traps. If you think that sounds exaggerated, please do look into it. Romania has the highest number of deaths from auto accidents in Europe in spite of having few roads and a low speed limit. We also have poor repair standards for cars, but don't worry, that's something that drops too when money is tight. It provides money from sewage works which prevent deadly diseases you're now used to seeing as causes of death only for people in Sub-Saharan Africa. It provides money for education, for schools producing competent professionals. An incompetent architect, engineer or doctor can cause the deaths of many people. If you think wrecking the economy cannot lead to disastrous consequences in a short time, just look at Venezuela. For different reasons, yes, but it all went to Hell frighteningly fast. I know shock sells, I know the numbers are unlike anything you've ever seen on television before, but try to look at what's really behind those numbers. The average age of those who died from the virus in Italy is around 80. The life expectancy in Italy is 83. So, on average, people who died, lost 3 years of their lives. I know 3 years can make the difference between your grandchildren remembering you or not and I damn sure know I was devastated when dad's mom died at 91, but... The lockdown policies in place now are placing those last few years at the end of somebody's life, years that are usually full of disease and pain (do you know what a palliative care ward looks like, what it must be like for the people there, unable to go to the toilet, in pain in spite of all the pain medication, with their faces and eyes burning from the tears of pain, unable to do anything about their dried lips?) over a lot more years in the lives of generations to come. If somebody who is seriously ill in the first place gets killed by the virus, it is no doubt going to be sad for that person's family, but why are we placing the handful of years they lose at the end of lives (and during those years, the quality of their life would undoubtedly be lower anyway) over the two thirds of a lifetime someone may lose dying in a car crash because the roads were in ruin, on the operating table because the surgeon was underpaid or overworked or incompetent due to underfinanced medical and education systems or by his own hand due to financial despair or in violent civil unrest resulting from the economic meltdown pushing social systems over the brink? I am not saying the old and weak are disposable. Everybody dies to break somebody's heart ( fantastic song, by the way). I'm saying that before this virus, if a transplant team had to choose who got a heart, an 80 year old with a host of other health problems or an otherwise healthy 20 years old, they would have undoubtedly chosen the 20 year old. So why is precisely the other choice being made now? If anyone is going to bring up the argument of young and healthy dying too, please bear in mind the fact that most of the young and healthy dying work in hospitals, which means they need more and better protective gear, which isn't going to just magically appear out of nowhere, so we're back to needing that pesky healthy economy to provide it.
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Post by redvers76 on Apr 13, 2020 2:12:30 GMT -5
Here in the U.K. the young and healthy are dying in big numbers, and they don’t all work in hospitals. Yes there are a lot of doctors and nurses exposed with a lack of PPE but also people from all walks of life who have come in to contact with someone at random and succumbed to the virus...
The first person mentioning microchip conspiracies was Peter; his other posts tell you all you need to know about that!
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Post by redvers76 on Apr 13, 2020 2:15:34 GMT -5
As for money, here in the U.K. and I believe in America they’re literally printing money and pumping it back into the economy to prevent a recession.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 13, 2020 2:27:40 GMT -5
As for money, here in the U.K. and I believe in America they’re literally printing money and pumping it back into the economy to prevent a recession. I've seen they're printing money. It only shows just how desperate the economic situation is. Because it's something that can have disastrous consequences. It's basically cutting off a limb to live. Brace for hyperinflation. There's no way to avoid that once you start printing money and you can't ensure an increased supply of goods, which won't happen when shutting down the economy. And once that happens... well, look at Venezuela.
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Post by redvers76 on Apr 13, 2020 2:45:21 GMT -5
As for money, here in the U.K. and I believe in America they’re literally printing money and pumping it back into the economy to prevent a recession. I've seen they're printing money. It only shows just how desperate the economic situation is. Because it's something that can have disastrous consequences. It's basically cutting off a limb to live. Brace for hyperinflation. There's no way to avoid that once you start printing money and you can't ensure an increased supply of goods, which won't happen when shutting down the economy. Here in the U.K. the sacred cow seems to be house prices. If people lost jobs in a recession, the house prices drop due to an increased supply of properties available. And that seems to be the last thing they want to happen, because it seems that everything is tied up in property one way or another...
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 13, 2020 3:53:44 GMT -5
Here in the U.K. the young and healthy are dying in big numbers, and they don’t all work in hospitals. Yes there are a lot of doctors and nurses exposed with a lack of PPE but also people from all walks of life who have come in to contact with someone at random and succumbed to the virus... Checked the NHS stats. 53% over 80 92% over 60 99% over 40 Still looks like a much lower risk for people of working age. Do you know of a breakdown by (I fucking hate the word) comorbidities? That would probably be more telling. Someone that's 30 and has terminal cancer is bound to be more at risk than a 60 year old with no major health issues, but unless something went horribly wrong, the 30 year old with cancer shouldn't have been working anyway. Return to work should be a non-issue for most of those in the higher risk categories anyway. I don't advocate for recklessly exposing people. I am against re-opening churches, particularly in Eastern Europe (see church fire and people dying due to the mad level of crowded a couple of years ago in the North of Romania... yeah, what do you know, this doesn't only happen to filthy rockers gathering in shitty clubs). I'm all for working remotely if possible. I'm all for getting rid of open office spaces. I'm all for keeping the plexiglas separators in supermarkets and also introducing them in restaurants and other such places (which I do think should be kept as take-out only for the time being). I do think those vulnerable should be protected and I do think people should be better educated on how to do that - it's appalling how many people don't have the slightest clue about how to put on, take off and wear gloves, masks and goggles. And I do think those at higher risk due to age or disease weren't supposed to be still working in the first place, virus or no virus. But the risk remains low for those whose health allowed them to work. Lower than the risk of fundamentally disrupting their lives and condemning them to a grim future. My mom works in a factory. She's on the phone all the damn time talking to other people there about what's going to happen, the future of their jobs. Will they even get contracts to produce anything in the future. Or will the production be shifted permanently to Asia since it's cheaper anyway, their factory will shut down and they'll be left jobless. For better or worse, she's close to retirement, but there are 20-year-olds working in that factory who are seeing the entire rest of their lives being ripped apart in front of them and there is nothing they can do. At the end of the day, the lockdown measures have proven to be incredibly classist and more about protecting the rich and the satisfied than about protecting the vast majority of the population. Most of the "economic relief" is going to companies that have systematically made sure less and less trickles down. I don't know how the situation is elsewhere, but here a lot of people working in factories live in dorm-like buildings. There are better ones with private bathrooms, but a lot of them have a single bathroom per level. They're not getting exposed less than at the factory. Where they should have some sort of protective equipment anyway. Locking yourself on your property the size of an amusement park when you have assets to support you for a long time is very different from locking yourself in a dorm room with no private bathroom when you don't even have the money to last you until the end of the month and your employer decides that if you're being provided food, then you don't need to receive money anymore.
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Post by pillis on Apr 13, 2020 4:26:57 GMT -5
The Venezuela situation is different, the crisis there is because of prices forcefully kept low ignoring basic economic principles. Printing money doesn't mean the world is gonna end, it's a drastic measure but it has positive effect in the short term period. The idea in EU also is not to print money but to have guaranteed union bonds to fund huge investments and welfare tools across the countries. But EU commission will probably go for the EMS giving us very pricy loans forcing us to change our laws and structure in the future stripping us from out democracy. That would be much more devastating that the current lockdown (see Greece in 2011).
And families and companies need money now. This is a huge debate and it's the reason why EU still has to respond to the current situation and it's appalling.
Also you keep talking about mortality which is not the problem here. Yes average age of dead patients is around 79 but more than 40% of people hospitalised is under 60 with severe symptoms, some of them need intensive care units and stay at the hospitals for weeks. I will repeat this again, our hospitals aren't prepared for this and if the numbers would to increase more in a short period of time it will affect all of our society. Do you really think it's wise to act like nothing is happening to protect the economy? The economy will be devasted when 30% of the population is hospitalised in a short period of time without any sort of safety measure. People will demand health care when they are not admitted the to hospitals. This is already happening as many patients are self isolating at home and they're giving intensive care only to the worst cases, we already hit our maximum capacity in many areas in the north and only in the past few days, thanks to the lockdown, numbers have started to decrease bringing relief to many hospitals which now have covid-19 specific department with specific protocols. This will be implemented in the future to face the next waves. Going after economy alone is what brought us into this stupid situation where health care expenses are sacrificed and animal rights are denied. This won't be the last pandemic so I hope we can all learn from this lesson and be better prepared for the future. Putting economy first another time would be a terrible mistake history will likely gonna show us again sooner or later.
I love Japan and Asian culture, they're incredibly clean and respectful to each other so they hardly touch and hug in public and wear masks on a daily basis. That's their culture. They already have an infrastructure that can produce and recycle a huge amount of face masks. In the west the situation is totally different, we can't afford to handle these protections to everyone, we don't have enough intensive care beds, non covid patients are being affected by this too this explains the different approaches in Taiwan and Korea which are indeed more efficient.
Also you say the lockdown is useless but mathematical projections and data show that it's working even if the data we have is insufficient as we cannot test as much as in Korea. Germany is testing a lot lately as far as I know because they're investing in labs and so on but this requires time and international cooperation with international funds. In Italy we can only run 40/50K tests a day because of the lack of labs, staff and chemicals and EU fiscal laws.
Also the lockdown doesn't mean everything is closed. Here restaurants can work with the take away system. Most of the essential companies are still working. Smart working is being implemented more and more with people working from home (most of office jobs can be easily converted and that's what's happening here). But again this requires time and it serves to lay down the infrastructure needed for phase 2 where we will live with the virus once its R0 has decreased and our hospitals are more organised and our companies can implement safety measures. EU is (used to be) the home of human rights. I still want this to be our focus instead of turning into a capitalistic demon.
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Post by anaix3l on Apr 13, 2020 4:52:17 GMT -5
Protecting the economy and protecting the people are exactly the same thing. By protecting the economy, we protect the people. Problem is, the lockdown strategy has already done damage that will take years, if not decades to recover from. I keep seeing this article thrown around and a lot of people are saying that's crazy, all doom and gloom. I think it's incredibly optimistic. I don't expect to ever be able to afford another concert again. I expect to be homeless and die frozen to death on the streets within the next winters. Also, I will repeat what I've said before: our hospitals are overwhelmed capacity-wise in 1 county out of 40. We also have an acute lack of equipment and a horrendously bad track record with hospital infections, the numbers for some hospitals being as high as over 95% of those who come in for one reason or another leaving with an infection they caught in hospital (mind you, this was the case even before this virus). So even if we have a lot of ICU beds compared to more than three quarters of the EU, it still sucks huge donkey dicks to end up in our hospitals and I definitely wouldn't wish it on anyone, virus or no virus. The hospitals in the other 39 counties are at most 1/3 of capacity. Problem is that due to the lockdown measures, people from the overwhelmed hospitals are not being transported to other hospitals that can take them. And those hospitals are not performing elective surgeries. And as appalling as it sounds, cancer surgeries fall in that category. I cannot headdesk enough over this idiocy. People are dying because of the lockdown while hospitals are still way below capacity just waiting for that surge. The "capitalistic demon" is the only one benefiting from the lockdown, with relief packages going to big businesses and nowhere near enough if anything at all getting to those most affected. The fact that it's precisely me and everybody else in my situation, with no written work contract, having absolutely no social safety net, no health insurance advocating for restarting the economy should be damn telling that this is not about corporate greed. People who didn't have a choice other than to bust their asses off having nothing but the hope that they won't get screwed over and will get paid... they're absolutely terrified because this one only way they had to survive has been taken away from them now.
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Post by pillis on Apr 13, 2020 6:53:30 GMT -5
Where did you even read cancer surgeries are suspended? Only minor non essential surgeries are suspended here.
But if you're so right then why the whole world is in a sort of lockdown? They're all stupid?
People are getting money in most developed countries either by cash flow, grocery vouchers, temporary unemployment and other welfare tools.
Maybe the situation is not so difficult in your country and that's exactly because we all acted to slow the outbreak. I don't wish you to live in Bergamo, Madrid or any other big city in critical condition. Maybe you don't actually understand the situation.
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Post by pillis on Apr 13, 2020 7:17:54 GMT -5
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